Ci talk:1003973765
I wonder whether "steel bridge" is wrong. It's "steel beam" or "girder" in
- every dictionary I found the word in (New Century, Key, GF, LAC, Wiktionary)
- Baidu Baike https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%92%A2%E6%A2%81/3278607
- 40 jukuu example sentences http://jukuu.com/show-%E9%92%A2%E6%A2%81-0.html
Richwarm (talk) 11:26, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Google image search shows 'steel girder/beam (I-beam/etc.)' as the primary usage,
... but also shows 钢梁 as short for 钢梁桥 'steel-girder bridge', not in ABC, but see
梁桥[-橋] : liángqiáo (n.) ‘beam bridge’ M:⁴zuò 座
钢梁[鋼-] : gāngliáng (n.) ‘steel bridge’ M:ge/²gēn/tiáo 个/根/条
板梁桥[--橋] : bǎnliángqiáo (n.) ‘plate girder bridge’
Another sense of 钢梁 seen in Google Image search is 'steel-beam (auto/truck) bumper (reinforcement)', as in 防撞钢梁, e.g. in conjunction with 丰田普拉多 'Toyota Prado Landcruiser' ... which I guess doesn't need an entry.
--Rscook (talk) 15:27, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Richard. In Australia, we sometimes call that a "roo bar" ("roo" being short for "kangaroo") because it protects the car from damage when a 'roo jumps out in front of you on a country road (usually around dusk). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roo_bar
> Google images [...] shows 钢梁 as short for 钢梁桥 'steel-girder bridge'
I had a look at Google images, and I saw a few bridges, but in the ones I checked, it turned out that in the accompanying text, 钢梁 meant "girder". For example, on the following webpage, there are pictures of a bridge, and 钢梁 appears in the text, but 钢梁 refers to a component of the bridge, not the bridge itself: 把大桥南侧45片钢梁连接成一个整体 http://www.qz123.com/html/271/20171020/news_show_164483.html
Did you find some other Google images that have accompanying text where the meaning of 钢梁 is "steel bridge"?
Richwarm (talk) 22:15, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I think you're right. Though 梁 'bridge' is the primary historical sense ('beam/girder' is secondary), and prominent in the common word 桥梁, modern usage is clearly mainly 钢梁 'girder' ... and counter examples are hard to find.
https://baike.baidu.com/item/桥梁钢
https://baike.baidu.com/item/桥梁板
It seems that 钢梁 (like 钢桥) might be short for 钢梁桥 or 钢桥梁, if that is not ambiguous ... but this does not match most modern usage.
There are several examples in ABC where 梁 'bridge' occurs, without 桥 'bridge' ...
飞梁[飛-] : fēiliáng (n.) ‘single-span bridge’
濠梁 : háoliáng (n.) ‘bridge spanning a small creek’ M:⁴zuò 座
津梁 : jīnliáng (n.) ①‘bridge’ ②‘springboard’ ③‘help; aid’
山梁 : shānliáng (n.) ①‘mountain ridge’ ②‘bridge in the mountains’ M:²dào 道 ③‘pheasant’ M:²zhī 只
... but these four seem uncommon (someone from Taipei tells me they are not colloquial).
In the following cases with 桥 and 梁, the sense is clearly 梁 'girder/beam', not 'bridge'
板梁桥[--橋] : bǎnliángqiáo (n.) ‘plate girder bridge’
梁桥[-橋] : liángqiáo (n.) ‘beam bridge’ M:⁴zuò 座
桥大梁[橋--] : qiáodàliáng (n.) ‘bridge girder’ M:²gēn 根
ABC contrasts 桥梁 vs. 梁桥 ...
桥梁[橋-] : qiáoliáng {B} (n.) ‘bridge (lit./fig.)’ M:⁴zuò 座
梁桥[-橋] : liángqiáo (n.) ‘beam bridge’ M:⁴zuò 座
... but 梁桥 isn't in GFC ... and someone (from TW) whom I asked doesn't know 梁橋, or any of the above four; they say that 梁 doesn't usually mean 'bridge' without 橋, and then only in 橋梁.
It seems that 钢梁 is not commonly used for 'steel bridge', though it might be used this way in special context. A girder which is also a bridge? A bridge made of a single girder? Need to ask native mainland speakers?
BTW, the old form 𣸑 liáng 'bridge' is said to depict a bridge, if that's any consolation 😊
--Rscook (talk) 04:32, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
1) Google images [...] shows 钢梁 as short for 钢梁桥 'steel-girder bridge'
2) It seems that 钢梁 (like 钢桥) might be short for 钢梁桥
Why do you say it "might be short for 钢梁桥" if Google images "shows" it to be so?
I did some paired Google searches like "修建桥梁" (69,000 results) and "修建钢梁" (2 results, both of which are spurious because there is a comma between 修建 and 钢梁 on those 2 webpages). That implies that if 钢梁 is a bridge, virtually nobody talks about constructing such a bridge on the Web, as far as Google can see.
I got similar results from other paired searches like
"桥梁通车" and "钢梁通车"
"重建大桥" and "重建钢梁"
etc.
In short, people write thousands of pages about reconstructing a 大桥 or opening a 桥梁 etc., but almost nothing about doing the same sort of things with a 钢梁.
Richwarm (talk) 10:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
I think you're right. I was thinking of 梁 'bridge' as not inconsistent with such possible modern usage, but looking more closely at the Google Image results reveals no supporting text, though it's hard to process.
BTW, HDC has all of these compounds in which 梁 'bridge' occurs without 桥, including all four mentioned earlier from ABC:
津梁, 浮梁, 关梁, 飞梁, 梁柱, 河梁, 山梁, 无梁, 虹梁, 鱼梁, 成梁, 高梁, 玉梁, 发梁, 濠梁, 舆梁, 舟梁, 北梁, 川梁, 隄梁, 危梁, 脩梁, 车梁, 独梁, 蜚梁, 杠梁, 合欢梁, 花梁, 梁津, 梁头, 梁栈, 秦梁, 鹊梁, 渠梁, 松梁, 梯梁, 雄梁, 虚梁, 渔梁
At any rate, I suspect some dialects might use 钢梁 'steel bridge'. But I don't see this clearly attested. ABC might be guilty of anachronistic interpretation. Or, at the time of "en wr." usage of 梁 'bridge', were steel bridges yet in use? Without clear evidence, we should probably not preserve that sense in ABC. No other dicts at hand have it, though that doesn't mean ABC didn't get it from somewhere.
Again, this reflects the larger problem of not drawing lexemes from genre-/locale-specific lexical corpora.
BTW, someone else told me that 钢梁 meant 'steel reinforcement', as used in pouring concrete, i.e., "rebar". And I looked up "rebar" in ABC, and not finding it, eventually found several entries with 'steel reinforcing bar', to which I added 'rebar'. The new EC entry looks like this:
+rebar [ˈriːbɑr] n. gāngjīn 钢筋; pèijīn 配筋; luówéngāngjīn 螺纹钢筋; luówéngāng 螺纹钢
However, I find no evidence that 钢梁 is used for 'rebar'; al though it is used as 'steel reinforcement', it is not a 'bar', and I think not used for 'rebar'.
And, rebar, not to be confused with "roobar" 😊
--Rscook (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
> HDC has all of these compounds in which 梁 'bridge' occurs without 桥
I don't doubt that 梁 can mean bridge and that it originally meant bridge. I'm just saying that it's very hard to find evidence to support ABC's current definition of 钢梁. The fact that 钢梁 could plausibly mean "steel bridge" isn't a strong enough argument.
> at the time of "en wr." usage of 梁 'bridge', were steel bridges yet in use?
The earliest steel bridge in this listing of early steel bridges is dated 1868. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Early_iron_and_steel_bridges
The only Chinese steel bridge mentioned is Luokou Yellow River railway bridge, Jinan, Shandong, China (1912).
> No other dicts at hand have it, though that doesn't mean ABC didn't get it from somewhere.
Sure. ABC's entry says it came from "HP", whatever that is. (The entry says reference vhp179c4, which means something like "see HP p.179, third column, 4th entry".) But isn't it possible HP got it wrong? I see plenty of mistakes in Chinese-English dictionaries.
Richwarm (talk) 05:14, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
---
The difficulty of this question is compounded by the close association between this steel girder (used in steel bridge construction), and the steel bridge itself. A Google search for this string ...
钢梁 ‘steel bridge’
... finds these 3 entries in the online web dictionary “意查查” (I think that's how they spell it), from what seems to be an engineering glossary ...
http://www.ichacha.net/steel%20bridge.html
corrosion cracking of steel bridge 钢梁腐蚀裂纹...
protective coating of steel bridge 钢梁油漆...
steel bridge fatigue damage 钢梁疲劳损伤...
Such cases might be seen as mistranslations ("steel girder" or "(bridge) girder steel" could be substituted), or as metonymy/synecdoche, of 'steel girder' (substance/component of the steel bridge) for the 'steel bridge' itself. I don't know the source of this web dictionary and don't see the larger context of these snippits, perhaps it reflects the ABC source. But it suggests that "en fig." might be appropriate; ABC includes metaphor under "en fig.", and metonymy/synecdoche is figurative usage (figure of speech). Three examples don't resolve the question, but I think they help me better understand how the ABC entry might have arisen.
And in general, it makes sense to try to distinguish obvious ABC errors, from possible errors, and to err on the side of non-destructive editing, when modifying entries. That is, if we move this 'steel bridge' (en fig.) sense to 3df, and add a "rem" pointing to discussion of this question, the future editors will at least know what we discussed, and might have additional resources to clarify.
BTW, I preface "rem@" to my changes, when editing entries, to comment out the original (before my changes) and to insert questions and comments. In this wiki that is less critical, since the wiki has nice history features, but I think it is still useful, since the "talk" is not integrated into the band notation itself, and "rem" adds a way to make very pointed comments (at specific entry content). In this case, we would first change
df steel bridge
... to ...
rem@df steel bridge
... and then proceed from there, to add new content, bands, etc., and perhaps ending the edits with a comment like this ...
rem@rscook_2018-08-14T10:48:32PDT changed entry, mention briefly what was done, justification, pointer to talk or LexList discussion, etc.
BTW, a search for 钢梁柱 also finds some interesting things ...
钢梁柱结点计算
钢结构中钢柱和钢梁的截面尺寸该怎么算？
... ABC has ...
梁柱 : liángzhù (n.) ‘column; beam’
... but the distinction is between the 梁 'girder (horizontal member)' (横梁), vs. 柱 'column (vertical member)' (柱子). A better gloss might be something like ...
'beam/girder and column (construction/structure); horizontal and vertical member (assembly/intersection)'.
结点 is the "tie point", where the two members are joined (riveted/tied) together, with plates, in 板梁桥 construction.
--Rscook (talk) 18:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
In the context of bridges, ichacha's translations of those three terms are reasonable even if 钢梁 can only mean "girder".
On the other hand, if you attempt to find an example of usage where 钢梁 could only be a bridge, for example by Googling phrases like "桥梁开通仪式", there seems to be virtually nothing. I think that if nobody on the Web mentions constructing a 钢梁, or opening a new 钢梁 etc., it's unlikely that 钢梁 is any sort of bridge.
A non-destructive way of editing the entry would be to include a remark in the band notation, or even in the gloss itself so that it's visible to users, to the effect that the HP's "steel bridge" sense has not yet been corroborated either by other dictionaries or by usage on the Web.
By the way, whoever defined 钢梁油漆 as "protective coating of steel bridge" (quoted by ichacha) failed to take account of the sort of usage we see on this webpage: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/28508747
> it suggests that "en fig." might be appropriate I think you'd need for evidence for that. Doesn't seem likely to me.
Richwarm (talk) 00:00, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
If the definition becomes something like 1. steel beam; girder 2. steel bridge, it can be expected that users will be unsure which sense is applicable in some instances where the context doesn't make it clear (such as 钢梁油漆). By default, one would assume both senses are quite possible. If it is seen as desirable to avoid deleting "steel bridge", perhaps the 2nd sense could be written as something like 2. (rarely) steel bridge.
Richwarm (talk) 05:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
--
HDc has no entry for 钢梁, but I was meaning to check it for ex. sentences with 钢梁, and there are 5 or 6 hits:
《工程师》一: “两个桥墩, 拱托着一个巨大的拱形钢梁。”
《长江大桥纪念碑碑文》: “五月钢梁架设在六号墩处合龙, 两岸引桥亦先后完成。”
《长江大桥纪念碑碑文》: “钢梁架设在六号墩处合龙, 两岸引桥亦先后完成。”
刘宾雁 《在桥梁工地上》二: “ 曾刚 来了, 提出个方案, 自己亲自走上了便桥, 指挥工人用 ‘千斤顶’ 把钢梁吊起, 然后处理桥墩。”
杨朔 《三千里江山》第四段: “ 武震 紧紧鞋带, 骑着钢梁出溜过去。”
《人民日报》1977.1.21: “﹝周总理 ﹞用手敲打着钢梁, 抚摸着涂上黄蜡油的螺栓帽, 称赞我们的革命干劲, 称赞保质保量迅速修复大桥的创举。”
The first example seems to be ...拱形钢梁 'two bridge piers supporting a huge arched steel-girder bridge'; the two vertical piers/supports (两个桥墩) are contrasted with the arched/span members of the bridge (拱形钢梁).
The next two ex. are really just one: they repeat a passage from the same source, 钢梁架设在 'steel bridge/girders installed/erected on six piers working from both ends of the span and meeting in the middle, and the two bridge approaches on either end also completed'.
And the last three ex. are all just 'steel girder', with not clear 'bridge' context, I think.
By "fig.", I meant that 'girder' seems to be used by extension (in the cases seen) to mean 'bridge'. In the "ichacha" examples above, the girders are apparently bridge girders, girders (of girder steel) used in the construction of a steel bridge. As mentioned, there are plenty of HDC ("en wr.") examples of 梁 'bridge' in words without 桥. So all told, I'm still leaning toward 3df "en wr./fig." for 钢梁 ‘steel span/bridge'; 3df is far enough down the list, after 1df 'steel girder/beam' and 2df 'steel-beam bumper', that it probably won't hurt anyone too much. And in that position, it can also be easily commented out with "rem@3df".
BTW, there are two English usages, 'steel girder' and 'girder steel' (steel girders are made of girder steel), which I've seen conflated in 钢梁 (梁钢 is not a word, though it is some CEO guy's name; he doesn't need an entry, except maybe in wikipedia).
--Rscook (talk) 20:42, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
> The first example seems to be ...拱形钢梁 'two bridge piers supporting a huge arched steel-girder bridge'.
I don't think 钢梁 means "steel-girder bridge" here. But I do think it is an example of something that isn't what you'd call a steel girder either. 钢梁 seems, from what I can see, to refer to a span of a bridge (constructed from steel) rather than an entire steel bridge. (I explain why in the note below.) That is, it refers to a component of a bridge supported on each end by a pier. It can be seen as a generalization of the idea of a beam. It's a generalization because it may consist of numerous pieces instead of being essentially a single piece of timber or metal.
Note: The reason I came to the tentative conclusion that 钢梁 can mean a steel bridge span (as opposed to a steel bridge or a steel girder) is that I found this: 2014年08月14日，跨越松花江的哈--齐客运专线特大桥的三架拱形钢梁成功合龙。 http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_48a2b9fb0102uz05.html Now, 三架拱形钢梁 describes the three arched spans of the bridge. (See the photo on the webpage.) None of those three individual spans could be regarded as a bridge by itself. Each of them is an element of a bridge that functions analogously to a girder without actually being a (single) girder. Here is another example that corroborates this notion, and also indicates that spans are counted with the classifier 孔: 佳木斯松花江大桥的真实故事。[...]该桥始建于1938年，全长1382.6米，由35孔钢梁组成，是佳木斯、双鸭山通往哈尔滨的咽喉，地理位置十分重要。 https://kknews.cc/zh-sg/history/nqor6m8.html In this example, there are 35 钢梁s in the bridge. You can see a train crossing these 35 spans in the following YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-IdOtBPkGM (Count them if you like!) Of course, it makes sense to count spans with classifier 孔 because of the hole shape formed by the piers, the span, and the water underneath.
So I'm still not convinced that we have found an example of 钢梁 usage where 钢梁 means steel bridge. I'm also not convinced by ichacha's three translations that it makes sense to define 钢梁 as a figurative term for a bridge, because I take what ichacha says with a grain of salt. We don't know what their source is. Those phrases could have been extracted from a translation from E to C or vice versa, and as a translation at the sentence level, they may have made sense, but perhaps not at the word level. For example, in the context of steel bridge maintenance, you may say you are going to give the girders an anti-corrosion treatment. At the sentence level, it's reasonable to translate that into another language as "give the bridge an anti-corrosion treatment". But that doesn't mean English "girder" can mean "bridge", not even figuratively.
And I don't think we have yet found a single example of 钢梁 usage where 钢梁 clearly refers to an entire steel bridge, have we? Really, I'd want to find at least several from different sources before I claim 钢梁 is used that way. But I understand that you take a different approach in ABC.
