Ci talk:1003328133

I think both the mw and freq bands should be moved to the end. They apply to all the glosses. Tangmu (talk)

I undid my change. 台 in front of the word turns out to be a lot less frequent when I do a Google search, and it will take me too much time to determine if it is valid. I (or someone) need to do more research some times before making changes. --Lemuel (talk) 01:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

For ease of future reference, those undone additions that require more research are:

2en comp.

2df [en] firewall

2df [fr] pare-feu

2mw tái [台]

I notice that Sarah's French translation so far has only one term corresponding to three in English:

df [en] firewall; bulkhead; dam

df [fr] mur de feu

Should other French terms be added for "bulkhead" and "dam"? What's the difference between "mur de feu" and "pare-feu"?

Tangmu (talk) 00:53, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

On my PC, Wenlin says "fire wall/bulkhead/dam". This appears to have been changed to "firewall; bulkhead; dam". But a 防火墙 is presumably something that is designed specifically to prevent the spread of fire, whereas dams generally aren't. Is it possible that the original definition was supposed to be interpreted as "firewall; fire bulkhead; fire dam"? I see the following, for example, on the Web:

防火墙 fire bulkhead; fire dam; fire division wall @ https://bkrs.info/slovo.php?ch=%E9%98%B2%E7%81%AB%E5%A2%99

It seems that a "fire dam" is a part of a combustion engine. Here are some quotes from the Web ... "You need to use gaskets to seal the fire dam to the cylinder sleeve." - "This fire dam protects the seal from some of the combustion by-products which might otherwise get to the seal." - "Cylinder head gasket fire ring leakage will result in combustion gasses ... Figure 2 — Cylinder Liner Fire Dam and Coining Bead Cross-Section" - "Cylinder Kit Part # MU5MK4236: flanged liner with fire dam", etc.

Are we sure that 防火墙 really means "dam", not "fire dam"?

Richwarm (talk) 11:50, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

To add a little more on the measure word part, I use Google hit counts to compare the usage of three possible measure words: 堵, 台, and 部. The first came from the current definition, the other two from words commonly used for computers. I got the following:

一堵: 35,800

一台: 59,000

一部: 1,930

So we should add 台 and maybe 部. Before that a more detailed look at the context is needed. I'm guessing 台 is not used, for example, to quantify firewalls used to stop the spread of actual fire, as it normally applies to equipment. --Lemuel (talk) 12:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Do we need to indicate which senses of "firewall" we mean?

The definition is "firewall; bulkhead; dam". Do we need to make it clear that 防火牆 means "firewall" in both the "construction" sense and the "computing" sense? Because I don't think it's clear at the moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_(construction)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_(computing)

Richwarm (talk) 08:10, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not vital but it could help. The reason I made my original change was because I assumed the measure word for a computer firewall would be different from that of a construction one, and I think that is still roughly the case. 堵 seems to get used for both senses, but I'm suspecting that 台 and 部 only apply to the computer firewall. If we confirm that, then I would say that the the construction meaning should remain, perhaps with some cleanup from your research. My second entry with the <comp.> tag would come back, and include all three measure words if we are being descriptive, and perhaps a smaller set if being prescriptive. --Lemuel (talk) 12:13, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Measure words for 防火墙

The goal of my original change was to differentiate the different senses, construction and computer, of 防火墙 with the assumption that they have different measure words and that knowing the difference someone would then use the correct one. I'm making notes here on findings and for others to add to.

As mentioned in an earlier discussion, there are at least three possible measure words for the two senses of firewall: 堵, which is the current measure word in the entry, along with 台 and 部, which are used for computers and other electronic devices, especially 台. Looking in Google for counts of each measure word's use in front of 防火墙 with an 一, I got the following numbers:

   一堵: 35,800
   一台: 59,000
   一部: 1,930

From these numbers 堵 is clearly still valid, but 台 needs to be added as a measure word. I don't know enough yet to say whether 部 is just uncommon but correct, or if it is incorrect.

The next task is to determine the use of the measure words in construction and computing contexts, so see which ones they apply in. Because a computer firewall protects a network, I searched for "一m.w.防火墙" ”网络“ -”建筑“, replacing "m.w." with each of the three measure words. Here are the results:

   一堵: 10,100
   一台: 41,400
   一部: 898

So for a computer firewall, 台 appears to be the the best measure word, with 堵 being a possible second entry if we want to be descriptive.

I then did the same test with "一m.w.防火墙" ”建筑“ -”网络“, which seems like it will steer things toward construction. If someone who knows construction terms better wants to suggest a different term that is fine.

   一堵: 1,680
   一台: 293
   一部: 0

I would say 堵 should remain the sole measure word for the construction firewall, pending actual reading of the search results.

I've mentioned being descriptive and prescriptive. Here I think we should be prescriptive. I do not think it would be good to give people three measure words when one or two of them would make them sound bad. Whether or not that's the case is another thing, but we should only include the correct measure words. --Lemuel (talk) 12:53, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding "for a computer firewall, 台 appears to be the the best measure word", Googling ["一个防火墙" ”网络“ -”建筑“] yields far more results (176,000), which is perhaps not surprising since a computing firewall is often software rather than a piece of hardware. Another way to distinguish the different senses of "firewall" would be to use environment tags. New Century CE dictionary has this definition, for example: "[林业] fire wall [计算机] firewall". ABC has "comp." and "forest." environment tags that could be considered. (Certainly, "comp." seems appropriate.) Yet another way to distinguish the two senses is to spell them differently: "firewall" for the computing sense, and "fire wall" for the traditional sense. This is what New Century does. These are also the spellings given in Merriam-Webster. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fire%20wall Richwarm (talk) 23:00, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure 个 is a good test, because it gets used a lot as a catch-all when people are not sure or don't want to think about it. If I turn the 个 query back to construction with ["一个防火墙" -”网络“ ”建筑“] I get 5,370 hits, compared to 1,680 for 堵, the current measure word in the entry. For another comparison, "一台电脑" gives 460,000 hits but "一个电脑" gives 540,000, yet we do not want to put 个 as a measure word for 电脑 or the construction 防火墙.

Your tagging recommendation is basically what I originally did and also suggested in the second topic on the page. We have definitions, and use environment tags to distinguish the meaning. Each one will have its own set of one or more measure words. We can use "cons." for the construction firewall and comp. for the computer meaning. I'm not sure what the firewall would be in relation to forestry. --Lemuel (talk) 01:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I just had lunch with three Chinese and asked them about this. The answer I got was to use 个 for software and 台 for firewall hardware. I tend to think of firewalls as devices since they are normally on dedicated computers, and in English firewall software is non-count. I'm gathering, though, from what Richwarm and my friends said today, that people talk about quantities of firewall software units, which would make 个 valid. We should distinguish that in the dictionary, then, so people use the right measure word. We then end up with something like this, also taking out "dam" based on Richwarm's research:

fánghuǒqiáng ​防​火​墙[--​牆] {E} n. ①〈cons.〉 firewall; bulkhead M: dǔ 堵 ②〈comp.〉 firewall (security device) M: tái 台 ③〈comp.〉 firewall (computer program) M: ge 个

What do you think? --Lemuel (talk) 17:21, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in replying. Been busy at work lately. That definition looks pretty good. Re "normally on dedicated computers", my understanding is that Windows computers have a software firewall, and I figured that's where people typically encounter the notion of a firewall. "All current versions of Windows have a software firewall built in and turned on by default." So says https://askleo.com/do_i_need_a_firewall_and_if_so_what_kind/

Re "English firewall software is non-count". Yes, "firewall software" is not countable, but "software firewall" is countable. (I wouldn't normally refer to a software firewall as a "firewall software unit".)

The proposed definition doesn't include other types of firewall, as in (for example) "In your car, a firewall is the “wall” of metal between you and the engine. Its purpose is to prevent engine fires from reaching you." But perhaps it's sufficient for practical purposes to include just the construction and computing senses of 防​火​墙. Richwarm (talk)

Understood on the different senses of computer firewalls. I work in computer security and my first exposure was to dedicated devices. Both should be covered, of course, so hopefully what I did works.

Remembering car firewalls from building models as a kid, I wondered if that was a different word, but haven't researched that beyond looking in my Oxford picture dictionary and not finding it. I figure that can be added later on. --Lemuel (talk) 20:32, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I think what you have proposed is fine, certainly for the time being. Richwarm (talk) 23:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I just looked at the Oxford-Duden Pictorial Dictionary again and tried "bulkhead", since it is a British dictionary. They have a picture of a go-cart and the shield between the motor in the back and the driver is a 防护墙, which Wenlin has as a computer firewall. I expect we'll find more synonyms for that sense of the word too. BTW, firewall is also a thing in physics, related to black holes. That will be another meaning to track down. --Lemuel (talk) 11:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)